The predominant theme here and last week is "obedience" and "obey." The noose gets tighter.
jonathan dough
JoinedPosts by jonathan dough
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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-08-09 WT Study (OBEDIENT)
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the 11-08-09 wt study (september 15, 2009, pages 11-15)(obedient).
review comments will be in red or headed by comments.
wt material from today's wt will be in black.
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Lets Debate the Trinity
by UnDisfellowshipped income on everyone, let us reason on the trinity doctrine using the bible!.
you know there has to be at least 3 big long trinity threads on here per month... so i figured i'd go ahead and start one for november.. the bible says that there is only one true god who is god by nature, the only god who deserves our worship and prayer.
jesus taught that his father is god.
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jonathan dough
Let's start with some definitions, and then illustrate the JWs' confusion with respect to the doctrine.
“The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one God, who exists in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. These three persons share the one divine nature. They are equal, co-eternal and omnipotent. They are distinct from one another: The Father has no source, the Son is born of the substance of the Father, the Spirit proceeds from the Father (or from the Father and the Son). Though distinct, the three persons cannot be divided from one another in being or in operation (Oxford Dictionary of the Bible [New York, Oxford University Press, Inc., 2005] 1207) (Oxford). With minor changes, the reformed Protestant churches have essentially adapted the Catholic teachings on the Trinity Doctrine (see section 12).
Central to the doctrine that God is three Persons in one nature is the premise that “Jesus is God,” a term which causes great confusion among the Jehovah’s Witnesses who unfortunately do not understand what is meant by this Trinitarian phrase or what the Trinity doctrine teaches. One of their more bizarre errors lies in believing that Christ is a created angel who became man and after the resurrection reverted back to being an angel.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses have published countless pages of criticism of Christian Trinitarianism, teaching that it is the work of Satan and utterly illogical. This relentless attack, however, is based upon certain misconceptions and falsehoods allowing them to capitalize on many unsuspecting individuals’ ignorance of accurate Trinity dogma.Three of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ false teachings are particularly misleading and form the core vehicle for the dissemination of gross distortions.
First, they do not understand that a "Person" is not a material human being like you or I. Persons of the Trinity are spirit. Secondly, they do not understand that God is "three" in one sense, and "one" in a completey different sense. And third, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are unwilling or unable to acknowledge or grasp the concept of the hypostatic union, the union that is the God-man Jesus, who is fully God the Son and fully man, a divine Person who assumed a human nature. Intertwined with this concept is the often ignored principle that the created humanity of Jesus is not God. Accordingly, Jesus, the man in the God-man equation, could pray to His Father and acknowledge His Father’s superiority without committing any doctrinal contradictions. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, on the other hand, teach that the incarnate Jesus was nothing more or less than a man.This treatise begins by shining a light on the worst of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ misunderstandings, and goes on to explain in greater detail what the Trinity doctrine actually teaches. From there, many of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ arguments against the doctrine of the Trinity are disposed of in light of more accurate teaching, after which a further examination is made of scriptural support for the Trinity in the Bible.
A major section is then devoted to select Bible verses that prove that Jesus was, and is, God, followed by a brief summary of early Trinitarian theology which provides us with a better understanding of the doctrine’s foundation. The concluding section is devoted to the issue of Jesus Christ being a created angel.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses, whose religion is essentially 4th century Arian Subordinationism (see section 41) have said many things about the doctrine of the Trinity that are simply not true. Out of a sense of common decency and respect, those who propound and believe in the doctrine and people who seek to understand it better are entitled at a minimum to a fair hearing on the issues, which is the primary goal of this work.
But before you begin, it is very important to understand two simple concepts which lie at the heart of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ errors; the difference between immanent Trinity and economic Trinity, and how their religion has commingled them resulting in untold confusion.
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is jesus a god?
by javig inhi...i have come across the jw text that says that "the word was a god" john 1:1...who is that "god"?
another god?
is him jesus?...
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jonathan dough
JD, I was just stating that, even as a non-trinitarian, I know that they Trinity does NOT teach that Jesus is God ( The father) as some non-trinitarians claim, it teaches that Jesus is God (the son).
Got it.
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304
is jesus a god?
by javig inhi...i have come across the jw text that says that "the word was a god" john 1:1...who is that "god"?
another god?
is him jesus?...
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jonathan dough
double post
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304
is jesus a god?
by javig inhi...i have come across the jw text that says that "the word was a god" john 1:1...who is that "god"?
another god?
is him jesus?...
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jonathan dough
I am not a trinitarian and I knwo that the trinity does NOT state that Jesus is God the father, but that Jesus is "God the Son
Not sure of your point or what you're responding to. Usually in the Bible reference to the Father God refers to the Triune God, not the first Person of the Trinity, i.e. God the Father. So Jesus is God the Son, who is fully God, hence, Jesus is God. Not the creature. In that sense, yes, the Trinity does not teach that God the Son (the Word, second person) is God the Father (first person), and it does not teach that Jesus, the creature, the man of the God-man of the hypostatic union, is the Almighty.
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304
is jesus a god?
by javig inhi...i have come across the jw text that says that "the word was a god" john 1:1...who is that "god"?
another god?
is him jesus?...
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jonathan dough
Here is a question for you AGuest...who raised Jesus from death? Was is it God or Jesus himself?
Surely only God could do such a thing...what do you think?
Actually, ...
Jesus Christ resurrected Himself - (John 2:19 - 22)
Jesus made it clear that he would resurrect himself from the dead. Referring to his body Jesus said, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” (John 2:19-22). Acts 2:32 appears to contradict Jesus. It provides, “This Jesus God raised up” (see also Galatians 1:1). To resolve this inconsistency the Jehovah's Witnesses argue that John 2:19-22 does not really mean that Jesus would raise himself up, even though it says so, but that “Jesus himself was responsible for his resurrection” (Reasoning, 423,424). They rely on Luke 8:43-48 where the ill woman with the flow of blood was healed not because she healed herself but because she exercised faith in Christ’s power to heal (ibid., 423), and this exercise of faith made her responsible for the healing.
This analogy, however, is misplaced because John 10:17, 18 says that Christ’s power to resurrect himself was a command (NAB) or charge (RS) given to Jesus from the Father. Yes, he was responsible for his resurrection as the obedient servant on a mission, but he also exercised a power granted to Him to raise Himself from the dead, a power and command which the ill woman of Luke 8:43-48 was not given, and who was not the product of a hypostatic union of God and woman.
This is why the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again. This command I have received from my Father. (John 10:17, 18 NAB)
Jesus was not talking about some abstract “responsibility” for his resurrection as the Jehovah's Witnesses claim (Reasoning, 424). The language is unambiguous. He had the “power,” and he exercised it.
Neither was Jesus claiming, as the Jehovah's Witnesses argue, that Jesus raised “himself from the dead independently of the Father as the active agent…” (ibid.) because it was not the dead created humanity of Christ - who was not God - who resurrected Jesus, but the divine second Person of the Trinity, God the Son who is fully God, and who never dies (Habakkuk 1:12 NWT). And it was He who was in a position to raise up the dead body of Christ. Recall that the three Persons of the Trinity never act independently of each other (New Bible Dictionary, 1299, 1300), so the act of the divine Jesus was the act of the Father. “All works of the triune God ad extra are indivisibly one (Encyclopedia of Religion, 56).
This illustrates a fundamental flaw in the Jehovah's Witnesses’ analytical process, their inability to reconcile two “apparently” conflicting concepts which do not conflict at all. Galatians 1:1 states that God raised up Jesus, but John 2:19-22 says that Jesus raised himself. Rather than reading both passages together, they discard one in favor of the other. Or ignore it. Or try to reason it away, or just change the Bible to accommodate their theology, but in so doing they violate their own often repeated admonition to read different verses pertaining to a particular topic together.
Looking at Scripture from their point of view, then, the Bible would be full of irreconcilable contradictions: both Jesus and God can’t be Lord, but there is only one true Lord in the highest sense (Ephesians 4:5). Both Christ and God if separate entities can’t be Savior granting eternal salvation, yet there is only one such Savior (Isaiah 43:11; Titus 1:4, 2:6). If Jesus is God and the Father is God and there can only be one God, there is no contradiction in the Trinitarian world, but not so with the Jehovah's Witnesses whose answer lies in reducing all of Jesus to the status of man and denying the divine unity, nothing more.
If Jesus is alone in “having immortality” (1 Timothy 6:16 Green’s Literal Translation) it would mean, for the Jehovah's Witnesses, that the Almighty is not immortal, but we know that is not true (Isaiah 57:15). Similarly, all things were created and exist for God, but all things were created for Jesus as well (Colossians 1:16). And, Isaiah 44:24 states that God made all things, but at John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 it is the Word who made all things and all things were created through Him and for Him, to mention just a few of these examples.
And, if there is only one true God (John 17:3) and Jesus is the true God (1 John 5:20), is there really a conflict? Not if you believe in the triune God which supplies a very reasonable answer if you take the time to understand what the doctrine actually teaches. These apparently mutually exclusive concepts aren’t exclusive at the expense of one or the other, but must be read together and combined which leads to only one conclusion - Jesus was, and is, God.
The Almighty would never inspire such blatant contradictions in His Bible, and He didn’t. So if God raised up Jesus and the divine Person of Christ raised himself then Jesus must be God if one is to give weight and meaning to both passages within the Trinitarian context. -
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A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. From the Nov 1 WT
by life is to short inthe november 1st public wt has an article on "do you need to learn hebrew and greek?
" funny is it not that they feel we do not need too.
anywho on page 21 of said wt.
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jonathan dough
It then said how we could not even totally be able to use a dictionary because many dictionary's provide all the possible meanings of a word and how could we know for sure which the word is used that will help us to determine the specific meaning.
And now they are told they aren't capable of reading and understanding a dictionary? Mabye they shouldn't driving, either.
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Bible Research help needed.
by cantleave inmy wife and i want to start looking afresh at the bible, go back to basics as it were.. what have people here found to be the best approach?.
what translations of the bible would you reccomend (i have the nwt).
what commentaries / texts have people found most useful?.
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jonathan dough
If you live near a university, go to the library and lose yourself in the religion section. There are many great commentaries and it is helpful to read and compare, and it is a great discovery to see what each biblical book has to offer on its own terms. Then you might see how superficial Watchtower publications are on the most part...and how much there is yet to learn. I have been reading this stuff for 20 years and I feel like I've only just started.
Amen.
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is jesus a god?
by javig inhi...i have come across the jw text that says that "the word was a god" john 1:1...who is that "god"?
another god?
is him jesus?...
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jonathan dough
so let's get that one out of the way... God has a name -- Jesus has a name - both different, both meanings in Hebrew different,
Jesus, the man of the God-man hypostatic union, does indeed have a different name as the creature is not the Almighty. But He also assumed God's name "I AM" as God the Son, not the creature who is not the Almighty.
Also, when Jesus went back to heaven, he did not go with his human body as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom as shown in 1 Corinthians, one of your statements indicated that, or am I mis reading it...
Yes, you are misreading it completely. You need to stop and think, for yourself maybe? The resurrected body was GLORIFIED, flesh and bones (not flesh and blood, Luke 24;39), but not exactly what our bodies are today, a glorified body that can and does enter into the kingdom of heaven. Read this section, and others, carefully if your really care. You're just mumbling what they told you to mumble, but I know you are smarter than that.
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304
is jesus a god?
by javig inhi...i have come across the jw text that says that "the word was a god" john 1:1...who is that "god"?
another god?
is him jesus?...
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jonathan dough
\..And Jesus could rightly be called Eternal Father as he, by his death, allowed us to live if we accept him... I dont see a problem there...
You should care as it speaks volumes. JWs teach that there is only one Father, and that only the Father is eternal. To say that it only means he "allowed us to live if we accept him" is pure fabrication. Look at all of the proof texts that prove you wrong.